Love the blog

I, too, have been heavily influenced by Piper, primarily in this way: God's mission to restore creation to its original glory is always about God being glorified, and our individual salvation is always subservient to that ultimate purpose. Our individual salvation, our personal religious experiences, are all wrapped up in the restorative mission of Jesus to establish his Kingdom “on earth as it is in heaven.”

Establishing the “rule of law” is indeed important, as nobody is not to look to a “ruler” but only to God. This is but a tiny piece of the Christian anarchist position, which recognizes that God is our Lord, King, President, Prime Minister, or whatever “ruler” you want to come up with. Even modern state-olatries such as democracy can be an idolatrous commitment for the Christ-follower.

I'd like to hear more about God “trampling over the property rights of others” in the Joseph narrative. I'm not sure I even understand the interpretation, let alone the application.

I'm okay with the phrase “social justice” in a religious context, but when we invoke political solutions to societal problems, we are bringing in an inherently conflictual solution to a problem. When solutions are provided for some people by pointing a gun at somebody else for their money, time, resources, or other forms of wealth, all in the name of “it's not your money, it's God's anyway,” then social justice becomes itself unjust. We can't wash a floor with dirty water, no matter how “mostly clean” it is. Granted, we live in a fallen world and we have only fallen solutions. But when cleaner water is available, I have to in good conscience choose the cleaner water.

Our individual salvation and our resulting concern for the outcasts, etc are all subordinate to God's ultimate objective, which is his own glory. I've been persuaded in this viewpoint to a large extent by John Piper's interpretations of Jonathan Edwards' writing (and scripture too). I think this understanding helps me to reconcile some things that are otherwise troubling.

For example, it seems clear to me that we were created as individuals with individual responsibilities (and perhaps individual rights) and that God saves us as individuals and we were not created to rule over one another but to look to God as our only ruler. This all serves as a great foundation for establishing the rule of Law rather than the rule of rulers as a way of organizing society. This is further supported by God's preference for judges rather than kings when organizing his chosen people in the old testament. But… how do we handle the story of Joseph in Egypt where God clearly guided Joseph in apparently trampling all over the people's property rights and individual freedoms for the benefit of his family and his people? God is sovereign and he will do what he will do for his own glory.

Social Justice as practiced by most people I've come across who use the term to describe their own work is defined as a redistribution of wealth and power – but more often than not, this simply replaces one type of oppression with another and so I agree with you that true social justice fights against all types of oppression.

I don't claim to have thought this out particularly well so please accept these comments as a form of “thinking out loud”…

I highly doubt anyone could do so.

I posted as dahcrb….basically calling Wallis out for his personal obsession with Glenn Beck and his own lack of civility.

My comment was deleted. I got no explanation, just a red banner above the blog pages that says I am blocked from making any new comments…..and there is no comment editor that appears on my page now.

How civil is that?

Wallis often points to the Hebrew prophets and their proclamation to the nation of Israel that it ought to have relative economic equality… or, stated more contemporarily, the gap between rich and poor ought not to grow too large.

I don't disagree in principle, but as I point out in later responses, Wallis misses an easy opportunity to explain why such disparities exist in our nation… and they are not the free market!

But humanism and its strong political and social issues are having the effect on the progressive church and their agenda , not the other way around . The DNC Platform which has little or no input from the Progressive Church has many of the issues the progressive church embraces . The church itself has nothing to do with the DNC/liberal issues.

The RNC Platform has many issues that have come because of the religious right , which I disagree with also in as far as using the state to promote our Faith , but the fact of the matter is the issues important to the Church of today are allowed to be used to further other political issues also . Which is the danger of linking the church with government, you can promote one issue but helped the other alliance of the party to promote an issue that indeed is not compatible with Christianity. The social and political issues are almost all accepted by the religious left if you read their blogs and spokespersons , refardless of religion , , their politics remain the most important bonding factor, not God.

They Progressive Church are closer to the culture of today then the Church is , but from a Christian point of view I would not say that was a good thing. In fact the world has steadily been creeping into the church instead of the church doing the creeping into the world so to speak. You just see it more in the progressive church and the socialistic , even at times idol worshiping of this cultures present issues from the progressive church.

But humanism and its strong political and social issues are having the effect on the progressive church and their agenda , not the other way around . The DNC Platform which has little or no input from the Progressive Church has many of the issues the progressive church embraces . The church itself has nothing to do with the DNC/liberal issues.

The RNC Platform has many issues that have come because of the religious right , which I disagree with also in as far as using the state to promote our Faith , but the fact of the matter is the issues important to the Church of today are allowed to be used to further other political issues also . Which is the danger of linking the church with government, you can promote one issue but helped the other alliance of the party to promote an issue that indeed is not compatible with Christianity. The social and political issues are almost all accepted by the religious left if you read their blogs and spokespersons , refardless of religion , , their politics remain the most important bonding factor, not God.

They Progressive Church are closer to the culture of today then the Church is , but from a Christian point of view I would not say that was a good thing. In fact the world has steadily been creeping into the church instead of the church doing the creeping into the world so to speak. You just see it more in the progressive church and the socialistic , even at times idol worshiping of this cultures present issues from the progressive church.

You and I agree about the principle itself, but the question is, how does that relate to the notion of grace? Or, maybe, why does grace not apply in this situation?

You and I agree about the principle itself, but the question is, how does that relate to the notion of grace? Or, maybe, why does grace not apply in this situation?